Talk:Phoenix Knights
Q-Issue This article clearly refers to a deleted article which was this one's duplicate, that will not be tolerated. In addition, the text needs a lot of proofreading. Angels of Vengeance is also a 2nd Founding DA chapter, I honestly doubt that you are not referring to that so please change the chapter's original name to avoid confusion. It is an active chapter and there can be no two chapters who share a name at a time. This article is herefore deemed as Q-Issue and NCF both until fixed. --Remos talk 09:44, November 6, 2014 (UTC) Yes, there is a duplicate. As I said, when it looked liek the KoV article won't be un-deleted, I took another admins advice and made a new article. Then the original article got un-deleted. So no need for hte old article. B.t.w. - I believe the old chapter name was KNIGHTS of Vengance.. Not ANGELS of Vengance. Will have to go trough the text again to see if I made a mistake somewhere. I'm going over and checking spelling errors, but it's gonna take a while. Internet and spellchecker are damn slow for some reason. TrashMan (talk) 10:09, November 6, 2014 (UTC) No need to rush with it, there is a month to go! --Remos talk 10:49, November 6, 2014 (UTC) Some points now. #"earth-like planet" means absolutely nothing. First of all, you propably want to say Earth-like, second of all you propably want to change it to Avalon Prime is a lush planet, similar to Terra during second and third millennia, covered in.... Why? Because at the moment (999.M41) Earth is known as Terra and Terra is nothing but a dead rock with some atmosphere and churches on top of it. No forests, seas or other stuff exist anymore, it is built full. So if it is like Terra, it refers to a fact it is fully developed Hive-world. #Just my humble oppinion about this, but anyway: "neighbor system". When we are talking about stars and their planetary systems and stuff like that, "neighbourhood" becomes a bit, how do I put it, insignificant. Is it neighbor because it is the closest system, or closest colonised system, or because it is next warp jump point, or something else? Now this is just my oppinion, but talking about neighbours in galactic level... is a bit ignorant. #"a observation", I thought you ran spellcheck? #Ok, again, something that I think it is wrong, but apparently not neccessary so. "Dark Angel" refers (according to my knowledge) to a specific space marine who is part of the chapter called "Dark Angel's'"... To have a singular form when talking about a chapter seems a bit odd but as I said, not neccessarily wrong. #This sentence: "Shortly after it's creation..." can also be written as "Shortly after it is creation..." learn the difference between it's and its, it will serve you in the end. #"DA" you are writing an article here, not summing up things. I recommend you to let go of abbreviations. Just my recommendation, but please, do. #Imperial Navy is a name, so capital letters are in order. #"...swore oaths of brotherhood with the sons of Guilliman..." okay, this is good, but. You are aware that there is a chapter called "Sons of Guilliman"? Because knowing that, it seems a bit odd... njah, it's good. #Why would chapter look for librarian when choosing a new chapter master? That would be heresy, you do know what happened to Blood Ravens? #"...unworthy inheritors; the Unforgiven must not be sullied by association with such marines. They must not be permitted into the fold, and cannot be entrusted with knowledge of the Fallen." I like this, may anyone else say anything, I like this. Though "corrupt" may be a bit... harsh word when it may indeed doom a chapter and its reputation wholly. #Third time you write "chapters" instead of "chapter's". #Guard Exemplar is something I'd wish someone would comment on. Because, in my oppinion, it clashes with our canon policy "Chapters do not have personal army of standard-human warriors" but then again... another user says his/her mind about them and we'll decide their fate separately. #Please use quote templates for quotes... #You should browse a bit and look for how many "Avalon" planets there are on this site alone. #"...the Phoenix Knights have the lowest recruitment death toll of all the chapters" if this does not get removed, the article will be deemed as NCF. Lowest? Seriously? There are thousand chapters at all times, thousands have been redone during ten thousand years, and you claim that this mutation driven lot has lowest rexruitment death toll of all? No, none can claim such thing. Remove it. #"Commander and sergeant armor usually has more black." I don't know what is the thing with this, but honestly, a chapter has its own heraldry. Heraldry covers the colours chapter uses and the symbols they use. When we are talking about personal heraldry, that is represented in a cloth, standard/banner, shield or such, but not on the power armour. Power armour is sacred thing and gets mad if you paint it with some strange stuff that does not belong to the chapter. #it's #"Administratorium" = "Administratum" #The Imperium's first official contact with the Tyranid race was in 741.M41, you are talking about 734.M40! That won't do. #Quotes in quote section need to be fixed. If you press space before sentence, it will result in that black box, don't do such thing. #Ok, it was someone else but anyway, do not link images to this site. If you want to show an image, upload it. Linking other sites is considered as advertising which will get your sutff deleted and your user banned. Please don't do such thing. I think that by your effort we can take the countdown off from the Q-Issue template. Template shall stay, however, because as pointed out above, you have quite amount of stuff still to go. And before you happen to do such thing; oldest living marine is Dante so you be sure to get that Arturian guy killed soon enough. --Remos talk 14:56, November 12, 2014 (UTC) And I'm sorry, but this article is NCF too for reasons explained here and because Space Marine chapters are not allowed to field personal standard-human army. --Remos talk 08:00, November 13, 2014 (UTC) Okay, please post your answer here next time, ok? When talking on article's talk page, I'd be pleased to see all answer in the same place, when talking with other people, use their talk pages. # So no. Guard Exemplar stays NCF as it clearly collides with our canon policy. As long as they go on campaigns/anywhere but their planet with the chapter, they are NCF. If they are really PDF/SDF (System Defence Force), then it is cool, but PDF/SDF are bound to one location and do not jog around. #Having a librarian as a chapter master is not against our rules, it is just extremely rare. I am aware of one occasion (Blood Ravens) and that did not end happily. I find it hardly believable that marines would even consider Librarian as a chapter master if the chapter cult hasn't driven them to such beliefs over centuries. Now we are talking about fresh baby-chapter, so they hardly have chapter cult at that point. Captain > Librarian, always. #Compromised seems well : D no, use whatever you want, it was a sidenote #Every single marine doesn't have to follow same single colour scheme. As Codex Astartes states, Techmarines for example have red armours and Apothecaries white regardless of the chapter, so they at least automatically have different colour scheme. But, the scheme doesn't get changed during their service in the chapter, now does it? I'd say that marines in different roles having different colour schemes is a bit odd, when it goes beyond company and squad markings. It is also said in How to paint Space Marines (2004), Index Astartes and in Insignium Astartes books that a chapter has one colour scheme and one heraldic symbol. I'm not going to make this bigger than it is, because in the end, it is just colours, I was just pointing my oppinion about it out. #Millennia can get wrong, don't worry. #600 is not that undernumbered. When it gets down to 100-200 it becomes bad. Having 600 marines means that the chapter is capable of hosting six strike forces at the same time (or maybe 5 and having one in reserve). Chapter does not usually fight as one single force anyway. 600 is more than enough and does not explain the Guard Exemplar. Why standard-human armies are banned from chapters is because we (here in wiki) think, that to raise non-marine arms to their cause, chapter is trying to make an Empire of its own, or to spread some strange cult -> Chaos/Renegades/etcetera. That is why non-astartes armies are banned for chapters, except if they are about to go rogue or are caught and destroyed by Administratum for doing so. I hope this cleared my thoughts and oppinions considering the rules. --Remos talk 13:10, November 14, 2014 (UTC) I see your reasoning. Still, 40K is a MASSIVE universe with all kinds of crazy stuff. There are plenty of things that aren't normally allowed, then happen. Exceptions, rule changes, retcons. Like librarian CM's (blood ravens), SM empires (Macragge, Huron), etc.. FYI, the Librarian isn't the Chapter Master, but the chapter turned to him to select a new one, him being the oldest and most senior officer left. I guess I should clarify that. The Guard Exemplar are one of the pieces of lore I very much like, especially since it meshes so well with their culture, history (Luther) and mutation (Exemplars being a source of fresh replacements for bodies AND progenoids) I don't think it's a stretch that a chapter that's on very good terms with the Inquisiton and Administrum can get away with it. It's a force small enough that it doesn't warrant attention - after all, they are only human and 500 of them are of no threat to even a depleted chapter. They are also usually deployed as scouts so aren't profilic/visible. They are a supltement to the chapters high attrition rates. I ran this chapter trough the Bolter and Chainsword and people there seemed fine, as long as it's believable and properly explained and not too extreme (my initial draft was so utterly Marty Stue horrible...yuck. Frankly I still think this needs work, but I REALLY like the Exemplar.) 18:41, November 15, 2014 (UTC) Well the problem with "not Astartes gene-modded soldiers" isn't how unique or unusual they are but rather how often they show up. Admech Skitarii, some types of Stormtroopers, and some Armsmen from the navy.its more of a problem in my opinion that they'd be seen as the SM trying to gradually develop a Skitarii type force. Allow me a demonstration. This is your body...WITHOUT FIBER! (talk) 00:04, November 16, 2014 (UTC) I don't care if you approved this stuff back in Games Workshop. If it says in our rules "no", it then is no. If you think it is a bad rule, you should come up with a blog text about it or raise the question in Forum:Community Discussion Board. Ever red our rules? Check the last paragraph in them. I am sorry. I think that using progenoid slaves to do something else than clean toilets seems a good idea and have sort of used that myself too, but Astartes can not field non-Astartes human army. When you refer to SM Empires, Huron's one didn't last very long, did it? When it comes to Ultramarines... they are Legion, they are shining fellows and everyone loves them. Not at all the same thing when we are talking about mutated chapter that tries to survive in the edge of some forgotten sector. For YOUR information, I think I am aware of my background story, otherwise I wouldn't be whining here. And sorry about that Librarian thing, I didn't quite grasp about what you wanted to say with it. --Remos talk 09:41, November 16, 2014 (UTC) Your background story? I don't follow. And I though you have guidelines instead of iron-clad rules. By your own admission there have been canon cases similar to this, yet this doesn't fly? Mind you, Huron increased the number of MARINES and created his own empire, sent fake report, witheld tithes.. no wonder the Imperium got p***d. If he only had a hundered human solders running around, I doubt anyone would bat an eye. And the Imperium itself is not as monolithic, so a lot of things can bass depending on whom you know and what you say. I believe that a chaper that is in good standing with the =I= and AdMech could easily get away with having 500 human soliders.. if anyone even notices. Speaking of which..is there another good 40K fan wikia out there? TrashMan (talk) 19:17, November 23, 2014 (UTC) Astartes numbers is controlled by Mechanicus and both of them are investigated by Inquisition all the time, so no I don't think they'd get by with such. And you don't even need to mind my oppinion about this matter, you can just read our canon policy and check it yourself if this stuff you've been contributing is ok or not on this site. We have guidelines in the How-to page, but we do have policies that are regarded wholly as rules. We have been quite good-willed with you for restoring your NCF/Q-Issue/Stub articles and let you try with them again. Are you saying you do not want to contribute here at all, because that is what this seems. And if you find my articles with flaws you can say it in their talk page, not here, or stop it before you even start it. (EDIT: didn't grasp "admission" ignore that part) --Remos talk 19:41, November 23, 2014 (UTC) I'm quite positive that there have not been cases similar to this where I had given admission. --Remos talk 19:47, November 23, 2014 (UTC) What I am saying that if this doesn't pan out, if I have to butcher my chapter to keep it on this wiki, that I might prefer finding another wiki rather than destroy the core of my chapter. And yes, I am gratefull for helping me in restoring the article (which only enough was deleted for another reason, the guard were never mentioned). I am also aware that the =I= and AdMech watch over such things, which is exactly why I didn't think it would be such a problem. 500 marines isn't over the prescribed number. 500 mortals is insignificant enough that the =I= might overlook it, especially if given incentive to do so. Heck, the very fact Dark Angels don't like the chapter would be interesting to the =I=. But maybe I can spin this around. Suppose the Guard Exemplar pretend they are part of a special Inquisitorial or Imperial Army force when they fight with the chapter? Then it would be "just another stormtrooper platoon" that came to help. TrashMan (talk) 15:15, November 24, 2014 (UTC) In other news, commisioned some artists to make a few images for me for the chapter. Initial sketch of Arturian already looks great :) TrashMan (talk) 15:16, November 24, 2014 (UTC) Guard Exemplar as it now stands does not fit in our canon policy. I know my fluff, I know there are many varying instances of greatly different chapters and so on. That is not the point. It is agreed by this community here that Astartes do not field non-Astartes armies, it is our rule and if you can't get rid of Guard Exemplar, you propably need to find another page because the article will get deleted for it. I am not aware of any (in any way active) fanon sites like this, it does not however mean there isn't one. I have nothing more to say, or therefore discuss, about this matter. --Remos talk 16:22, November 24, 2014 (UTC) Still brainstorming this. I was thinking making the GE hidden, but the friction with the Dark Angels angle falls apart. In other words, for that part to work the Dark Angel have to know. If the Exemplar don't do anything then they are just regular serfs. Now, Black Templars bring their neophytes (who re still not full marines) with them, the Unbroken Spears have their Acolytes (or whatever they are called) who are compeltley unmodded humans. They get a pass because they are technically going to be made into marines. But that is a slippery slope, since Guard Exemplar also work as a replacements (many do become full marines in the end). A condundrum. The GE could just be a specialzed defense force, but again,that breaks the entire point... Hmm.. IIRC; serfs can help the chapter defed their assets right? Let's say the chapters places tiny, uninportant outposts on every plant in the sub-sector. Technically, then they could bring in "serfs" with them to help defend their assets/territory. Or let's say a battle barge with marines and many battle-ready serfs come to fight a threat to the imperium. Normally the serfs would stay to defend the ship. But if something compelled them to deploy? Like a reactor leak or danger to the ship? Then that would be allowed? So what roles do the GE currently fill: - scouting and fire support/sniping - fresh and trained replacement for dead marines (up to a point, GE that get too old obviously don't count) - progenoid farms Frankly, I still think "the inquisition OK'd it because the CM whored the chapter to it" makes the most sense. If anyone has any other ideas, I'm all ears. TrashMan (talk) 11:13, November 26, 2014 (UTC) Yeah, all chapters host scout company, Black Templars just field the scouts (scout=neophyte) in their strike force squads when other (Codex compliant) chapters deploy scouts as separate squads to reinforce strike forces. Black Templars are also around 6000 in numbers, host dozen entire fleets and all other crazy stuff. Sub-sectors are quite small (in galactic comparison) and even if fan-chapters tend to guard one sub-sector/sector that is really not how it should be. SM are extremely important tactical advantage to Imperium and to put a whole chapter to defend one single sub-sector seems much like a waste of resources. Though, as I'm aware (SM movie, for example) chapters can have "unimportant outposts" (I see what you do there) just about anywhere, but then again... if they are all in one sub-sector, that seems much like Empire-building which might quickly rise some questions. Again that is, if they do not recruit from those worlds, but assumably the chapter wouldn't then have a homeworld but a fleet, so it is sort of neccessary to have such "unimportant outposts" to gather new aspirants to chapter from planets all the time. Now what I see so wrong in GE and why it reminds so much about Astral Claws. Marines are created by apothecaries by using gene-seed organs. So these apothecaries plant gene-seeds in men, to keep them as living progenoid slaves. Fine. Now when these (let's say 50) slaves gene-seeds are extracted, the chapter has twice the amount of gene-seed. You do see where this is going. If chapters would do such, they'd be capable of fielding an army of 10000 marines in... couple centuries. Does that sound right to you? --Remos talk 11:39, November 26, 2014 (UTC) Chapters that do well can build up a stock of gene-seed. I don't see it as a problem - it is a good thing to have. The problem arises when you got all Huron and try to build your own legion. Now, the Phoenix Knights need a large stock of gene-seed simply because of high rejection rates, so a progenoid farm seems like a logical approach to solve the problem. Aftar all, that's how the Mechanium does it. Anywhoo, did minor edits to both articles to provide more context on the Exemplar and their use. TrashMan (talk) 11:50, November 28, 2014 (UTC) B.t.w. - I changed the GE description. They are now a defensive formation that guards assets. Basically better equipped/trained combat serfs. Shouldn't be an issue anymore. TrashMan (talk) 14:14, December 3, 2014 (UTC)